“When people even question Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam giving quotes from the same is not going to help.”

Why not? If you read a book on Electromagnetism, and if there are any questions on a particular topic, it is logical to search and find the answer in the same book… if not, at least another book on Electromagnetism. It is hardly logical to say “hey, how can you quote from the same book? take up a physics or literature book and tell me how this is to be solved”.

Vedic knowledge is not got by research and development. It is apaurusheya… meaning ‘not man made’ and is perfect in all sense (even with ‘apparent’ contradictions, which I explained in a previous comment). It is not got by empirical methods or mental speculations of some cunning individual who wanted to rule over all. But this requires that one study it properly through prescribed process. Superficial study and comparing it to our mundane knowledge will not work.

Vedic methodology (shabda-pramana (hearing from authoritative sources))says and can prove (for the honest open minded seeker) that it is superior than the other methods of gaining knowledge (namely pratyaksa (direct perception, empirical method); anumana (induction i.e. arriving at conclusions using hypothesis, logic and examples, historical records etc.).

So we don’t have to ‘prove’ anything in the Vedas empirically… which doesn’t make sense anyway since the subject matters of the Vedas and modern scientific theories are at different dimensions.

http://krishna.org/the-indian-caste-system/

(This is probably a more detailed analysis on this topic… purely from the Vedic model perspective, as relevant to this article and this series… not from the neo-rationalist-cum-pseudo secular view)

“When a kid walks in to the Gurukul he/she already possesses a strong predisposition towards their own group irrespective of their natural ability.”

True… but that does not necessarily mean the kid is stopped from becoming what he is good at.

“But most importantly the caste system as we have today is not a corruption of Krishna’s caste system but a natural progression of Krishna’s caste system.”

Besides, your attempt at understanding the caste system or any other teaching of the Bhagavad Gita from a bodily standpoint (democratic, will be futile… since the first level of understanding that Gita teaches is we are not the body.

“But most importantly the caste system as we have today is not a corruption of Krishna’s caste system but a natural progression of Krishna’s caste system.”

Again, this is because you believe in the so-called ‘casteless’ society… I am beginning to think you have mixed up ‘class’ and ‘caste’.

Also note that there are just the 4 castes… there are also 4 ashramas that are in the equation, but were not mentioned in the post because of the scope of this article.

This caste system is mentioned in Chapter 4? Have you read the chapters beyond that up to the 18th? There are oh-so-many things that are mentioned by Krishna which ultimately show the viability of such a system.

You say you are not an expert… but you accept someone to an expert, is it not? So I would like to know on what basis did you do that.

You are given in to so much speculation that you missed the point.

“So Krishna’s system is designed to benefit those who want to stay in the same group versus those who want to switch from one group to another.”

If you read my post carefully, this is exactly opposite of what was actually in place. And there is nothing like ‘wanting’ to be a Brahmin or Sudra… it was based on their natural tendency that people were classified.

“this was during a time when the knowledge contained in the Gita was only transmitted to select individuals and a vast majority of the people could not read or write and therefore did not have the knowledge or opportunity to question the system that was imposed on them).”

And you know this… how? Show me proper references.

Who are these ‘experts’ you talk of? What is their expertise? How did they conclude what they did?

Its all a matter where you place your faith on.

@ Lakshmi
My problem is not with the Guru itself but with the flawed system proposed in the Gita. The caste system mentioned in the Gita is similar to the scenarios you mentioned (education, organization and others) only if you are looking from afar. But I see major differences upon closer observation.

The educational system or the system of dividing our organizations into groups is the system we created democratically. We have also set up checks and balances to prevent abuses within the system and also set up a legal system to hold people accountable for violations. The caste system was set up earlier for reasons like “Krishna said so in the Gita” (this was during a time when the knowledge contained in the Gita was only transmitted to select individuals and a vast majority of the people could not read or write and therefore did not have the knowledge or opportunity to question the system that was imposed on them).

Krishna’s caste system has a couple of inherent biases. Let us assume that there is a father and son who are both Sudras. The grandson now wants to be a Brahmin. What are the chances of the grandson becoming a Brahmin compared to the grandsons of other Brahmins? The chances are very low. When you are in a particular field or group (like a Brahmin, electrician or doctor) you pass on certain knowledge, insight, network, contacts and skill sets to your children. The Sudras grandson can become a Brahmin but it is going to take a lot more time and effort (the reality is he will return home from the Gurukul as a Sudra). This is something that anyone in the teaching profession today in rural India knows very well.

So Krishna’s system is designed to benefit those who want to stay in the same group versus those who want to switch from one group to another. This is a critical flaw since it violates the assumption that it is the Guru or the Gurukul that makes the primary determination. When a kid walks in to the Gurukul he/she already possesses a strong predisposition towards their own group irrespective of their natural ability.

Krishna’s caste system also has another hidden bias. The 4 castes are based on skill set and ability. But as we know all skills sets are not equal and portability is not the same. By favoring ability (versus say color of the hair), the Gita makes it easy for a Brahmin or a Kshatriya to become a Vaishya or a Sudra but makes it difficult for a Sudra or Vaishya to become a Brahmin or Kshatriya. So I think that the system as proposed in the Gita is rigged in favor of the Brahmins and Kashtriya’s.

In my personal opinion the system of caste according to the Gita is only valid for a few generations after with it becomes a rigid system. But most importantly the caste system as we have today is not a corruption of Krishna’s caste system but a natural progression of Krishna’s caste system. It is easier for a Brahmins kids to remain a Brahmin than a Sudra’s kids to become a Brahmin. As a self admitted creator of this system, I hold Krishna responsible for this mess:)

We should also examine what was going on in India during the time when the Gita was written. The Gita was composed anywhere between 5 century BCE to 1st century ACE (based on which expert you talk to). Experts also disagree on whether Gita was part of the Mahabharata or inserted later on. I am not an expert (I have only read the English translation of the Gita). But I am aware that during the same period there was another philosophy that was gaining ground that promised a caste-less society. We today call this philosophy Buddhism. Based on the rapid growth of this movement we can make an assumption that the caste system was a problem for the general public very early on (at least 2500 years ago).

@ Hari

Going through your viewpoints. The main point you find the caste system as discriminatory is that you do not want a guru with his or her own prejudices to decide what I can do with my life. Fine. Lets see this through some of the modern day practice.

A student completes his high school. According to his percentage, he is given admission or denied admission for various higher studies. Do you view this as discrimintory? As per your thought on caste system and guru , here in this case the education department must be rated as discriminitaroy. Bue we don’t view it that way right?

Second scenario. You take an organization. You have clerks, executives, managers, CEOs. Each one is assigned the rank based on his skills and knowledge. Is it discriminatory?

Life in vedic times where much simpler than moderndays. Simpler in various job profile, social status etc. So a guru after many years of gurukul education, allocates each one his position according to his capabilities. The thing is we tend to confuse caste system as practiced now with the way it was envisaged in ancient times.

People have an idea that if one is spiritual, one must be having a smile always, nodding one’s head slowly here and there, always using flowery words… these are all stereotyped impressions. Add to it the current tendency… “oh, there is no right or wrong… just everyone should agree on everything and do what is good for oneself”… and you can see what a mess it has become now.

If you read carefully the books, you will see the context in which such strong words are used in contexts where either people are misled on the basis of ‘scientific’ opinion or philosophy is misrepresented.

Fault finding is not a desired quality… but being a Guru means one needs to show what is right and what is wrong, without caring for niceties or how people perceive him. That quality was actually what attracted to me to his books in the first place.

In that light, I don’t see a problem with Prabhupada’s chastising words.

Please give me sometime to get the article done.